Today we welcome Yoichi Kotabe. However, he hardly needs an introduction, since he is one of Japan's foremost animators.

Because of his work as official illustrator for Mario, and the way he has improved the art world of so many of Nintendo's products, I think the coming together of Nintendo and Kotabe-san was an extraordinary occurrence.

Kotabe-san is currently retired from Nintendo and active as an individual creator, but he has come all the way to Kyoto because I wanted to talk to him again on the occasion of the release of Flipnote Studio. Thank you for joining me today.

My pleasure.

Before we talk about how your path crossed with Nintendo's, I would like to ask about what you were doing before that. How did you first encounter animation?

Before this interview, Koizumi-san from the Tokyo office showed me Flipnote Studio. I asked him what it was for, and he said you could make flick book animation with it. I was surprised that you could do something like that with a video game, but something else came to mind as well.

Flick book animation is how animation started. I first came to the world of animation through flick book animation.

How do you mean?

My father painted oil paintings, and as a child I liked art. I was always reading manga and copying the pictures. But it was my mother who got me directly involved in animation.

Did your mother also draw?

She didn't draw much, but when I was in elementary school she showed me flick book animation. She drew a stick figure on the corners of the pages of one of my textbooks. I think the figure was exercising. When I saw how it moved, I was surprised. I tried it myself and drew some flick book animation with stick figures. Even now I can remember how the figure would jump up to a high bar, flip around it, and then drop down. After that I was always interested in moving pictures.

A mother's influence can be powerful.

I was the oldest of five. Ever since I was little, she would whack me with a ruler.

You were raised strictly.

Even so, when I went to school, I hardly did anything but doodle.

That must have been your father's influence.

I suppose so. I grew to like art more and more, but my studies got worse and worse.

You must have had a strong inclination toward the world of art.

The high school I went to was originally an all-girls school, but it decided to try letting boys in, too.

Those were the early days of girls' schools becoming mixed.

That's right. It was the best girls' school in Tokyo, so the girls' grades were incredibly high. Which made me hate studying even more. (laughs) When I got out of high school, I wondered what I should do. My parents said I could go to a university if it was a public one. Just then, by chance, a friend who liked art told me that the entrance exams for Japanese-style painting departments consisted of nothing more than painting something in watercolor. I had never done Japanese painting - not even once - but I took the exam at the Tokyo University of the Arts, and by some quirk of fate I passed. It was a world full of people who were serious about art and looked down on manga.

You went to school in the late 1950s. Back then manga hadn't achieved much recognition.

My instructor at university was a well-known Japanese painter. I decided I wanted to achieve the same heights and become an artist even if it meant being poor. That's what I talked about with my friends, but when it came time to find a job, there weren't any.

I can imagine it would be difficult to find a job in Japanese-style painting.

It was. Out in society, there were no jobs involving drawing pictures. Then Toei Animation¹ began recruiting.

Did you immediately know that was the place for you?

The first full-length animated movie that Toei made was called Panda and the Magic Serpent².

Yes, I've heard of it.

I saw it as a student and was thrilled. I'd grown up watching Disney animation and had always thought that Japan's animation wasn't worth much. But when I saw Panda and the Magic Serpent, I changed my mind. I was moved to see that Japan could make something so incredible. So anyway, Toei Animation started recruiting.

It was destined to be.

I invited two of my classmates and said, “If you can't find a job, let's do animation together!” They were both girls and didn't have any interest in manga. They didn't even know what animation was. But they ended up getting the job, and I didn't! (laughs)

I can't believe it. You really didn't get it?

I was certain I would be accepted, so I had no idea what to do. I had really been excited about joining Toei Animation, so I was crushed. But Toei was on such a roll then, it wasn't long before they started recruiting again. I applied and was barely accepted.

If you had given up, your life and the history of Japanese animation would have been completely different. How many people joined Toei Animation at the same time that you did?

The company was flowering in those days, so about 30. Norio Hikone was among them.

He drew Uncle Carl³.

Isao Takahata was there, too.

Takahata-san of Studio Ghibli. That's quite a line-up.

He was in the directorial department. He was a little older than me, but joined at the same time.

Studio Ghibli's Hayao Miyazaki also came from Toei Animation.

Miya-san is five years younger than me. He is extremely distinguished now though. (laughs) Back when I was drawing key frames, he was in my group for a while.

When you first joined Toei Animation, what kind of work did you do?

You can't draw movement right from the start. First, there's someone who draws the main points, called key frames, within a movement, and then someone who works on the next stage. Newcomers like myself worked as hard as we could at taking what they had done, cleaning it up, and drawing the frames that would come in between.

How long did you do that for?

After about three years you begin to understand movement and are able to start drawing it yourself.

In other words, you can begin to draw key frames.

Right. After that, I worked on a number of different projects, and while I was absorbed in that, about ten years passed. At first, the company had a great deal of creative enthusiasm, but gradually it came to prioritise profits. Rather than producing original works, it started looking for popular manga serials and other materials to adapt. Even my own desire to create something fresh began to disappear.

You slowly became restricted in what you could do.

Yes. But then Hols: Prince of the Sun⁴ came out. Mr. Takahata was director. That was when I got braver with regards to animation.

Braver?

Until then I'd been taking it relatively easy. But Hols: Prince of the Sun was Mr. Takahata's first piece as director, so he gave it all he had. He put a lot of thought into what was expected of it, what he wanted to express, and the underlying psychological characterisation. He also expected a lot from the staff. And while I was trying to keep up with him, I started to grow in confidence.

I see.

After I was done working on Hols, I was never afraid to work on anything else.

You had been tested by fire and gained confidence.

That movie made us proud of the work we'd put into it. After that we had the courage to face whatever came our way. Later, after I'd been there about 12 years, I left Toei Animation.

There's no way I can continue without mentioning another particular topic. How did you come to work on Heidi, Girl of the Alps⁵?

I came to the Heidi project as a result of leaving Toei Animation. As I mentioned earlier, I was disappointed that I wouldn't be able to make any more highly creative works at Toei Animation. Just then, a certain production company contacted Mr. Takahata, Miya-san and me about adapting a certain famous work of children's literature.

When you heard that, did you immediately leave Toei?

No, I didn't know what to do. I'd worked with some of those guys for a long time. But I really wanted to make that animation, so I shook off my doubts and took flight. That was all fine and dandy, but then the original author didn't give the OK.

That must have been a shock.

I'd been making preparations.

If you had been able to make it, I wonder what it would have been like. I wish I could see how it would have turned out.

So Mr. Takahata, Miya-san and I were at a complete loss. It was quite a jam. That project was the whole reason we'd left our company, and now it was dead in the water. But the demise of that project preceded the birth of Tokyo Movie Shinsha's Panda! Go Panda!⁶

Oh, that's right.

Then, after we'd made Panda! Go Panda!, a different company approached us about Heidi. And again, I worried about what to do. I had quit Toei Animation, so if we quit Tokyo Movie as well and moved on, it would be our third company. But if we could be certain Mr. Takahata would be able to direct something there, Miya-san and I said we would follow. That led to Heidi.

I see.

But at the time, people were saying there was no way Heidi would be a hit.

Really?

Those were the days when sports stories like Star of the Giants were popular.

I suppose Heidi stood out a little at the time. But I think it is a powerful story that stays in your heart.

Besides, television animation was under budget constraints at the time. There was a limit to how many frames could be used. We wanted to use lots of frames for a full mode of expression, but couldn't.

Because of budget considerations, you could see the restraints as early as the planning stage.

I knew about the limitation on frames, but Heidi is actually a relatively short story. However, Mr. Takahata wanted to delve deep into it and show her daily life up in the mountains and all the human relationships, so we plunged into production, but it was quite rough. We stayed up all night for several nights in a row. I thought I might die. It was really awful.

I feel like I've heard that somewhere before… (laughs)

I'd like to ask about one other thing. I've heard that you were involved in a very important scene in Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind⁷.

Yes, I participated in drawing the key frames.

It's the key scene toward the end, when Nausicaä has been hit by the Ohmu and dies, but then comes back to life. I heard something about you working on that part.

All of a sudden Miya-san came up to me and asked if I could help him out. I agreed without giving it much thought. We talked it over, and I whipped off some drawings. Remember the scene where the tentacles reach out? Miya-san had drawn some layouts, and I was to trace those to create the key frames, but it kept turning out lifeless. So for the first frame of the tentacles I just used the layout itself. When I saw the finished movie and what an important scene it was, I was shocked.

(laughs)

I heard Miyazaki-san said you got mad at him. (laughs)

Of course! It's such an important scene, but he didn't even show me all the storyboards!

I suppose he wanted you to draw that scene.

I used to argue with him quite a bit. Like when we made 3,000 Leagues in Search of Mother⁸. I argued with Mr. Takahata, too. Even though we had a precise dramatic structure for a scene, I would go and draw something however I wanted. Now that I think about it, all we ever did was argue! (laughs)

After being surrounded by such splendid companions with whom you could argue so much, why did you leave the world of animation?

After working on animation at the same place for a long time, I start to feel like water that's beginning to stagnate. Besides, there was no guarantee I would be able to continue working with my like-minded peers forever, so I decided to leave the company and accept work on a freelance basis. However, while I may have been free, I wasn't working on the core of anything, just parts.

So you undertook pieces of larger works.

It was stress free, but it was not interesting.

It's either back-breaking but interesting or easy but uninteresting.

Then Ike-chan - Hiroshi Ikeda - approached me.

Ikeda-san has already retired from Nintendo, but he was once Miyamoto-san's boss.

Ike-chan also joined Toei Animation when I did.

Huh?! Really?!

That's why I call him Ike-chan. He's older than I am, but I argued with him a lot, too. Like when we made Flying Phantom Ship⁹. He was the director and I was the animation director.

I see.

Miyamoto-san, sorry to have kept you waiting.

No problem.

How many years after you joined Nintendo did Ikeda-san become your boss?

About 7 or 8 years, I think. About the time we were making Super Mario Bros¹⁰. He really gave me free rein. He was the first manager of the Entertainment Analysis and Development Department.

Kotabe-san, how did Ikeda-san invite you to join Nintendo?

As I mentioned, I was free, going through a dull period. Then I met Ikeda-san in a coffee shop, and he asked if I'd like to join Nintendo. He said that from then on video games were going to require an increasing amount of know-how in animation.

That was true. At the time, hardly anyone in the gaming industry knew much about animation.

When we made the Popeye¹¹ arcade game, I would watch the cartoon, stopping frame by frame to look at it and draw it myself.

Oh, you did that?

There was a really famous animation picture book showing frame-by-frame photography of people and dogs running. Even though I was at an art university, I had hardly ever used it.

A how-to-draw book.

Right. I, too, had always liked animation from flick book manga. I had never thought I would be creating my own animation, though, so I had to dive right in.

In the animation world, we study books like that as hard as we can. Like how to make movement smooth. But that gradually came to be seen as unnecessary, because the number of frames got lowered.

I see. Anime for commercial television only uses a few frames per second.

And there are frames that don't move.

That was something else that frustrated me. About that time, Ike-chan asked me if I would enter Nintendo and give advice about animation. I had hardly ever played video games, though. The only one I knew was Space Invaders. (laughs)

You played Space Invaders?

No, I just watched others play. (laughs) So I had no idea why animation was necessary for video games.

That's understandable.

But I said if he thought animation would be helpful, I didn't mind. I only intended to be at Nintendo one or two years, though. That became 21 years! (laughs)

(laughs)

But one or two years was an impossibility. At the time, the environment for you to do your work didn't exist in the game world.

When Kotabe-san was to join, what did you think, Miyamoto-san?

I didn't think it could be true. I had always liked manga and had watched a lot of animation, but not so much that I knew his name. But when a true animation geek heard Kotabe-san's name, he started shaking.

You're kidding. (laughs)

No, when we met you together, he was so nervous he was shaking. (laughs)

Before I met you, Ikeda-san had introduced me to Mr. Takao Kozai, who illustrated Sally, the Witch and New Star of the Giants.

Kozai-san is also from Toei Animation.

Really? Nintendo is really in the hands of Toei Animation's venerable elite!

We had Kozai-san do the art for Punch-Out!!¹², and occasions for asking cooperation from external professionals were gradually increasing, but we were going to have Kotabe-san come right in as an employee. I thought, “Is that all right?!” (laughs)

A real animator was joining us all of a sudden, but we hadn't made any preparations! (laughs)

What did you think when you first saw our art?

You didn't show me art, you showed me a video game. It was Super Mario Bros.

Oh, that's right.

When I first saw all the movements Mario was performing in Super Mario Bros., I thought that video games were now doing what the original animation industry was forgetting.

Even at that time, a fair amount of things had been done, including character movement.

I could see what you were trying to accomplish, even if you hadn't quite done it yet. But for a while after I joined, I didn't work on animation at all.

That's right. (laughs)

I showed up at work every day, and then sat around doodling whatever came to mind. (laughs)

If I remember correctly, the first animation Kotabe-san drew for us was of Luigi spinning around in circles. But we couldn't use that many frames, so we couldn't use it in a game.

Yeah. At that time I was drawing a lot of stuff that no one could use.

But then an opportunity arose for something I thought we should definitely ask Kotabe-san to work on. We did it together with Fuji Television.

Yume Kojo: Doki Doki Panic¹³.

Ah, I remember it.

I wanted the rug movement to be smooth.

Oh, that. (laughs)

I wanted it to move like a real rug, and I thought I'd ask Kotabe-san. To Kotabe-san, the great illustrator, I said, “Please, draw me a rug!”

How awful. (laughs)

(laughs)

So I drew him a rug that moved smoothly, and he told me it had too many frames!

The original animation had over ten frames, but we needed to cut some out and repeat the same ones over and over so the frame count would be low but the rug's movement would be smooth.

I think it was three. And we used them in reverse, too.

That was the first video game work I ever requested from Kotabe-san.

You also asked him to do a lot of illustrations for Mario.

Mario was pixel art, so the only reference was the package illustration for Super Mario Bros.

That's right. Kotabe-san turned that into the Mario we see today.

Ever since we made Donkey Kong¹⁴, I had made many rough sketches of Mario in pencil and then given them to an external illustrator to polish up. When we came out with Super Mario Bros., I was thinking about asking a professional manga artist or a well-known illustrator to do the art, but time was running out, so I drew the original art for the package myself.

So when I went to draw Mario, that one package illustration was all I had to go by. Then I heard Miyamoto-san was the artist, so I asked him all sorts of questions. Is this face ok? Is he like this?

That's right. He asked me a lot of questions. What's incredible is that both Kozai-san and Kotabe-san are so amazingly talented.

Someone who was far better at drawing was asking you how to draw something. You must have really liked that. (laughs)

(laughs)

Peach completely changed. I told him everything I wanted, like how I wanted the eyes to be a little cat-like.

And how she should look stubborn.

Stubborn, but a little cute. (laughs) Bowser changed a lot, too. I'd been drawing Mario for quite a while, so I knew what I wanted him to look like, but I hadn't drawn Bowser that much, so I couldn't get the lines to come together right. I like Toei Animation's work from around the time of Alakazam the Great¹⁵, and the ox that appears in that...

Oh, I remember you talking about that.

I told him how I liked that ox.

The ox king. Miyamoto-san liked that ox, and that was how he imagined Bowser. When you see the package art he drew, Bowser does look a bit like an ox. But after that, Takashi Tezuka said...

He said it was a turtle.

I thought, “Oh, it's a turtle?”

(laughs)

I'd been drawing something completely incomprehensible—a turtle's body with an ox's head! (laughs) Through our discussions, his appearance eventually came together, though. Since Bowser was in the turtle family together with the Koopa Troopas, we began to see similar lines between the two, so we copied those as faithfully as possible and moved onto the next illustration. I started congratulating myself, saying, “Wow, I can really make Bowser look cool now!”

You learned from Kotabe-san's drawings, introduced them into the game, and it would suddenly look a lot better. Later on, games started becoming 3-D, and Kotabe-san's skills became even more important for us.

When we were making Super Mario 64¹⁶, the development staff was always holding meetings.

Since we're talking about Mario 64, let's have Koizumi-san join the conversation. I had intended to have him join in when we got to Flipnote Studio, though.

No problem.

Koizumi-san, how did you first meet Kotabe-san?

The first person I worked with after entering the company was Kotabe-san.

To tell the truth, I consulted Kotabe-san about hiring you. (laughs)

Really?! (laughs)

The two of them conducted my interview.

Koizumi-san brought some animation he had created as his graduation project, and I watched it. He actually had experience making animation. Anyway, for some reason I was one of the interviewers. I badgered him with a bunch of nasty questions, like, “If you're so good at animation, why do you want to join the video game industry?”

So I started expounding animation theory and even video game theory.

It's quite a student who would dare to explicate animation theory in front of Kotabe-san and video game theory in front of Miyamoto-san!

(laughs)

I had no idea that the two people in front of me were Kotabe-san and Miyamoto-san! Even if I knew their names, I didn't know what they looked like. Besides, I was just a student and really nervous. I thought there was nothing to do but go for it, so I started rattling on about my pet theories. I shudder to think about it now. (laughs)

Miyamoto-san told me you were supposed to keep working as a character illustrator for a while.

I told him to develop Koizumi-san's skills.

Really? I didn't know that.

What I remember well from that time is Mario Kart¹⁷. At Toei Animation, they always said, “Look at the real thing,” so I forced through a budget to do just that.

We set out for some field research. I drove a go-kart for the first time and closely observed their structure.

Looking at photos or searching for material on the Internet isn't enough. You've got to see the real thing and take it all inside yourself. That field trip really paid off when we made Mario Kart.

Yes. Thanks to you.

But then the game development became short-staffed, and Koizumi-san got taken away from me.

Miyamoto-san asked you to develop his skills, then snatched him away. (laughs)

That's why I've been trapped at Nintendo for 21 years!

(laughs)

Going back to Mario 64, once when Kotabe-san was looking back at that time, he said he was finally able to do what he had always wanted.

I said that?

Miyamoto-san told me about that conversation with you.

You didn't say you were happy about what had become possible at that time, but that you could do what you had always wanted. That made me really happy.

At first there were so many restrictions.

For so long we could do so little, but you stuck with us.

Something else from that time made a strong impression on me. Once games became 3-D, they would normally become more realistic, which I thought would involve introducing motion capture. When you rejected that, I was surprised.

Oh?

Even though one would normally want to use real elements, you rejected that and proceeded in a different direction. I thought that was really something.

Why didn't you want to use motion capture?

Well, way back when I was first making Popeye, I couldn't draw well, so I copied everything when making animation, but when you play the game that way, the response wasn't very good.

Even if Popeye appears to move nicely to the eye, you can't make him move the way you want him to, which I didn't think was good for the world of video games.

When you press a button you want an immediate response. If there's a preparatory movement beforehand, it doesn't feel right.

For example, when you press a button, Link immediately pulls out his sword, but then he slowly draws back, and the second time he makes a clean swing. So, when I decided to combine both smooth movement and satisfying interactivity, I knew simply importing existing anime technique wouldn't be enough.

That's right.

That we would give serious thought to that and attempt to achieve it was our strength. For a while that was all I thought about.

I wasn't rejecting realistic movement. I was giving priority to how it felt to play the game rather than to smooth movement. And when showing the movement was an important element, we emphasised the smooth movements. I recall there were times, when I talked quite fervently about these issues.

I see.

But after you became involved with Pokémon, we hardly spent any more time working together.

We started making Pokémon Stadium¹⁸ and Pokémon Snap¹⁹ at the same time.

When we started, we knew we would have to create 151 monsters.

All we had was two-dimensional data, so we had to change them to 3-D models one by one.

But that was a fun time. I felt like I'd become a sculptor. We started with a model, which we spun around, and I'd say, “Oh, this needs to be chiselled away.”

Yes, I remember that. We would watch the model turn around and fix the places you pointed out, and it would rapidly start looking better. I wondered how it worked. It was outside my area of expertise, so it was like watching magic.

I couldn't move the model myself, so I felt like it was a group effort. But I was pressed up against the desk, so I thought maybe I was irritating those I worked with.

No, not at all. Every time you gave some sort of instruction, it was like a ray of understanding hit everyone. How are you able to work such magic?

It's the same as conventional animation, which isn't really one-sided. You have to make it move, so you imagine the parts you can't see as you draw.

I think Kotabe-san has a camera in his head. What surprised me the most when he first drew a picture for me was that each picture reflected a camera position.

He could draw from different angles.

Depending on the picture, the viewpoint might be looking up a little from below or slightly looking down from above. When we turned the Pokémon monsters into 3-D, Kotabe-san must have been able to imagine what they should look like using the camera in his head.

I see. Something else I noticed while watching you work on Pokémon was how good Kotabe-san is at offering praise.

He really is. He goes out of his way to find something he can praise, and then does. He would never say, “Oh, that's no good,” but rather, “It's certainly got character.”

My work used to be drawing key animation and checking others' key frames. Those pictures are infused with the artist's enthusiasm. That's why it's better to direct that enthusiasm toward corrections. I can sense the good in anyone.

Through the creation of its products, Nintendo encountered Kotabe-san. He thought he would only be here a couple of years, but before he knew it, he had stayed 21! Along the way, he created numerous disciples…

He certainly did.

During the course of its long history, Nintendo has been surrounded by all manner of good fortune. You could say that our relationship with Kotabe-san is an example of Nintendo's immense good fortune.

By the way, Kotabe-san, you have published an animation art book called “Collection of Yoichi Kotabe's Animation Arts”, haven't you?

Yes. There's been talk for some time of bringing out an art book, but I thought it must be a joke. I didn't even know if much of my original art still existed. But several years ago, when we remodelled our house, I found a wicker basket stuffed full of old art in the back of a closet. I showed the art I pulled out of there to an editor and he found a lot he wanted to put in the book. Even if I resisted because I found some of it embarrassing, he insisted. He even suspected me of keeping some more in hiding!

(laughs)

We put in so much that there wasn't anything left over afterward!

How many illustrations are in it?

So many I don't even know. Some of the art is from animated movement, so we decided to call it an animation art book instead of just an art book. It also has a lot of sketches from character design. It's mostly those things.

I hope many people come to know your work through this book.

Okay, now let's talk about Flipnote Studio. The kind of flick book animation that you draw in the corners of your textbook and the kind of animation that Kotabe-san has worked on are in some respects complete opposites, but you could also say they spring from the same source. Koizumi-san, what did you think when you showed Flipnote Studio to Kotabe-san? Having been the master's pupil for so long, were you excited or afraid?

I thought he was sure to like it. When I first explained it to him, I knew if I said I wanted to make pictures move that he would understand, so I could approach with my head held high.

When I heard about it, I thought it was an interesting way of making animation.

Inside, I was pretty nervous, though. (laughs)

Kotabe-san, what do you think about this company that you have worked with for so long suddenly creating something that some might call the starting point of animation and offering it for free to people who buy Nintendo's new game console, the Nintendo DSi?

What? It's free? I didn't know that. Oh…that's quite extraordinary. In my day it took forever until we could actually see something moving on a screen.

I see.

We used to learn movement by hand, drawing pictures frame by frame and flipping through them to learn the general speed. But by hand, something would suddenly appear a little off.

Of course, now you've got computers, so you can see the actual timing, but it's amazing how easy it is with Flipnote Studio. What's more, you can use dozens of frames and there are also frame settings. I think this was only possible because Koizumi-san knows about animation.

I learned it all from you! (laughs)

Kotabe-san would draw the original art and I would create the proofs and have him check them. The lines he drew were so graceful. He can draw line art that stands on its own, so ever since that time I have thought that you could complete a work of animation simply through lines and movement.

I see.

Japanese animation has both graceful lines and incredible movement. The movement techniques discovered by Kotabe-san and others involved in the early days of Toei Animation are very impressive, so I feel like I want to unearth those again.

Sometimes as I was scribbling away, I wished I had a tool to help me out. It wasn't exactly a fly in the ointment, though.

What kind of tool do you mean?

Like a sketching tool. For example, if I wanted to draw a girl skipping, in order to finish off her face neatly, I wanted to sketch it first, but didn't have the tool. If I could use grey to draw a rough sketch, then I could draw it accurately.

Don't worry. We plan to include such a tool in Flipnote Studio Version 2.

We'll include a layering function in Version 2. First, you can draw a rough sketch as one layer, then you can place another layer over it to polish it off.

Oh, you can do that? That's good to hear! (laughs)

(laughs)

You've really thought this through. I'm impressed.

First we're just going to release the bare necessities, then later, just when everyone wants more functions, we'll release Version 2. If we handed users a bunch of functions at once, they might get confused. Also, the absolute minimum necessary features are explained in writing, but only icons serve for all the rest. When someone notices one of those icons, he or she will wonder what it is and try it out. I'd like it if everyone teaches each other what they've learned.

When you showed Flipnote Studio to Kotabe-san, what did you want to stress the most?

How easy it makes drawing. You can draw something and set it into motion in two simple steps. You won't find anything else that allows you to do that with a stylus.

Once you draw something, you can immediately start it moving and check it right away. Kotabe-san, as an animator, do you find that amazing?

It truly is amazing. When a professional animator suddenly has an idea, he can't immediately check out how well it will work. Certain materials are necessary. But with Flipnote Studio, drawing is easy.

And it's great how you can draw anywhere. The reason I doodled in the corners of my textbooks during classes at school was because I had so much time on my hands.

Is that why you're still drawing caricatures during meetings at Nintendo?

(laughs)

You pretend like you're taking notes, but I bet you're really drawing our visitors' faces. I suppose it's a different kind of memo.

Right. I don't want to forget whom I met that day. But I haven't been doing it much lately.

From now on you can do it using Flipnote Studio.

Good idea!

(laughs)

Now I'd like to ask everyone about how they think use of Flipnote Studio will spread. What do you think, Koizumi-san?

In my first year in the department of media arts at university, there was a class in which everyone had to direct their own film. Students who wanted to be screenwriters or cameramen, everyone, had to make a film on eight-millimetre as a director. Eight-millimetre film for three minutes.

Each student took on the role of director and made a three-minute film.

Right. I thought doing that was a really good assignment. Everyone would like to make a film, but hardly anyone ever has the chance. But now that anyone can easily make animation with Flipnote Studio, unexpected people now will be able to display unexpected talent. I hope Flipnote Studio spurs them on to do so.

As if Flipnote Studio has uncovered hidden talent somehow?

Exactly. Someone at the Tokyo office who wasn't a designer or programmer made something incredible on it. When I saw it, I thought, “Aha!”

Kotabe-san, the animation that users have made with Flipnote Studio can be posted on the Internet and shared with others. People with hidden talent all over the world are being given an equal chance to share their work globally.

That's exciting!

I'm excited, too!

What do you think, Miyamoto-san?

I'm of a like mind with Koizumi-san, but…I think I'm going to use this opportunity to do some PR for Wii Music. (laughs)

(laughs)

Wii Music is very similar to Flipnote Studio. For a long time Nintendo has worked on developing games like editing tools. I think the ultimate video game is a computer-aided design tool. I've always said that if we had the perfect tool to, for example, allow you to draw a picture however you wanted, it would be the most enjoyable software, but it was very hard to achieve.

It was too expensive or it was difficult to use, so the burden placed on users was too great.

It's one theme we have continued to approach as we have made games all these years. In 2008 we completed Flipnote Studio and Wii Music. I hope people will someday come forward who say they wanted to become musicians because of Wii Music or creators because of Flipnote Studio. In that light, I feel like the year 2008 marked a new era.

Band Brothers DX is a little different type of game, but you can share your music with others.

Indeed, 2008 was a bountiful year! It is often said that those kinds of projects don't go that well, but I have a feeling they will go well in the very near future, like in the year 2009 and 2010.

Also, Made In Ore²⁰ is coming out in 2009.

I want each player to use such games to make forms of play specific to him or herself. Back in the days when, as Kotabe-san experienced, people would scoff at drawing manga, I started a manga club in junior high school. Our slogan was “Better at Art than the Art Club.” (laughs)

(laughs)

But the truth was, we were better than the art club! And we got better grades in Art than they did.

You overturned the existing authority and tried to make it to recognise you!

In the same way, I hope Flipnote Studio will usher in a new era.

Kotabe-san, seen from the viewpoint of your life spent mastering the art of animation, what do you think when you see something like Flipnote Studio suddenly appear?

As I mentioned before, it's very approachable, which I think is incredible. Even drawing flick book animation was, until today, reserved for children who were better at drawing. However, with the Nintendo DS, anyone can churn out some drawings and get them moving. Also, I think there are many ways to use it. For shiritori-anime²¹, for example.

Shiritori-anime?

I've heard they actually do this at animation schools. You start with a circle, for example, work it through a number of changes, and then end with a circle. If everyone makes something that starts with a circle and ends with a circle, then all their creations can be linked.

I see. It's like shiritori because the endings and beginnings link up.

You can edit them together into one animation.

In Version 2 we're going to include a function that allows memos to be lined up and played for consecutive viewing up to 30 minutes.

In other words, you can hook up works by multiple creators into one continuous animation lasting 30 minutes.

We need to provide a starting form.

We'll do that in Version 2 also.

I'm excited about it.

Me too! (laughs)

Earlier, Koizumi-san mentioned uncovering hidden talent, but I think Flipnote Studio can be a fun tool for professionals, too.

It would be great if, when this software goes out into the world, the number of people who draw animation would increase. I also strongly hope that - as Miyamoto-san mentioned – Flipnote Studio spurs people on to become animators, video and film creators and video-game makers.

Kotabe-san, thank you for this memorable conversation today.

Afterward, we asked Yoichi Kotabe to create his own animation using Flipnote Studio.