This time Iwata Asks is going to be a little different. We're joined today by Kondo-san and Ninomiya-san from Hatena Co., Ltd

We're pleased to be here today.

Kondo-san, would you please introduce yourself?

Sure. I'm Junya Kondo from Hatena Co., Ltd¹ Thank you very much for inviting me here today.

We run an Internet website called Hatena. It started up in 2001, and for seven years now we have offered a variety of services, mainly within Japan, such as a blog service, photo album service, and bookmarking service. We recently cooperated with Nintendo in an extremely interesting experiment to offer a service such as has never existed before.

To tell you the truth, I check out what's going on around the world every day using Hatena Bookmark.² I had no idea we'd be working together so soon, but it just happened that way! Well, we can talk about that later...

Kondo-san, what do you think about Nintendo?

Whoa! (laughs) A fastball right at the start!

(laughs)

For a while I wanted to develop a business overseas. I was in Silicon Valley for two years. But saying you're going to develop something globally is one thing - actually doing it is considerably more difficult. Around the time I was coming to realise that, the Nintendo DS and Wii console were released. The welcome for those systems at the time, especially for Wii in America, was incredible.

So, you felt the excitement back then.

I think that excitement continues today. I was moved to see something created by a Japanese corporation set the world abuzz like that. Ever since then I've longed for us to do something to get people all over the world excited. I've held it inside as a sort of goal. I realised that it was possible to develop something globally from within Japan - like Nintendo had - and returned to Kyoto in the spring of 2008.

Originally, Nintendo wasn't focused on the world. In Kyoto we were making what we ourselves thought was fun, and Japan received it favourably. Then we gradually spread out into the wider world. As many of the creative ideas and works were born and developed in Kyoto, you might say that Nintendo has been delivering creativity born in Kyoto into the world.

That's why I thought this was an excellent opportunity for us to work together.

Thank you.

How about you, Ninomiya-san? What were you doing at Hatena before this project?

A lot of engineers work at Hatena, but I was originally a designer, and about a year and a half ago I joined Hatena as a director. Since then I've been setting up the miniblog service Hatena Haiku, the photo-sharing service Hatena Fotolife, and the dictionary service Hatena Keyword, as well as giving direction regarding the interface when we opened and renewed the sites.

How did you end up working on this project?

At the very start, it was Kondo-san and I who visited Nintendo and heard about the project, so it was only natural that I be involved.

Ninomiya-san is our "fun-stuff specialist." We set up in a room near the office with a designer and programmer for one of our usual brainstorming sessions and started thinking right away.

Now, I'd like to ask some questions to a couple of people who made something a little different that eventually involved Hatena. Could you introduce yourselves and talk a little about this project?

Sure. I'm Yoshiaki Koizumi from Nintendo's EAD Tokyo Software Development Department. I was producer this time, but performed a variety of tasks. And sitting next to me is...

I'm Hideaki Shimizu, also from the Tokyo office.

Shimizu-san has been working hard with me ever since the Tokyo software development office was set up. He's a player-character programmer...

He was in charge of designing Mario's actions in Super Mario Galaxy.

And also for Donkey Kong in Donkey Kong Jungle Beat. When it comes to the player character's movements, he's very particular. After development of Mario Galaxy ended in the latter half of 2007, we wanted a unique team for the next project. So, in addition to our other projects, Shimizu-san and I decided to form our own team.

And that led to the Flipnote Studio software for use on the Nintendo DSi. The Flipnote Studio Nintendo DSiWare can be downloaded for free. It's a notepad for fun that allows anyone to easily create flick book animation. Actually, you'll be able to enjoy its creations on more than just your Nintendo DSi. We have plans to establish a bulletin board-like website that will allow users to post their creations for others to see on the Internet.

We've asked Hatena to operate that site, called Ugomemo Hatena (Flipnote Hatena).

This project began as a sort of afterschool activity for Shimizu-san and me.

What do you mean it was an afterschool project?

We wanted to make something fun after our usual workday had ended.

I admire your enthusiasm, but in my official capacity, it isn't something I can openly condone. (laughs)

Okay. Put another way, it was our secret project. (laughs) That was how it began, but at first we hadn't decided exactly what we wanted to do. But Shimizu-san had been saying for a long time how he wanted to create some kind of network.

That's right.

So we tried out a number of possible network projects for Wii, but nothing came together well. Then at some point we changed direction and decided to give the Nintendo DS a shot. Shimizu-san drew a picture on the Nintendo DS and made software for displaying it on Wii. He really likes drawing.

I'm not very good at it, though.

His pictures have a distinct style. When I saw them, I knew what I wanted. I said, let's use this to make flick book animation, and two days later, it was done. Then we started chatting, and we wondered, since the Nintendo DS has a mic, if we could add sound, and the next day he had done it. This software's prototype had been completed in just a few days.

Work moves fast when you're working on something you like (laughs).

I suppose we knew exactly what we wanted. That's why it went so fast.

Koizumi had only told me a little about it, but I thought it sounded great. Then before I knew it, I was working away on it!

Before you knew it? (laughs)

I wanted to surprise Koizumi-san. I'm a little mischievous that way.

I was a programmer, so I know exactly what you mean. (laughs)

We thought it would be a waste if we didn't show it to anyone.

When was that?

Early in April of 2008. At the time, we thought we'd call it Flipbook Workshop. You could make flick book animation and enjoy watching it. But one day one of the programmers rejected it by saying he had nothing to do with flick book animation.

Since he'd never drawn flick book animation, he didn't think he ever would.

Exactly. But he said it was fun watching ones that others had made. Looking back, I can see that Shimizu-san was originally making this software for himself so he could take notes.

That's right. I wanted a tool for recording notes. The prototype had been a toy for drawing, but couldn't keep records.

That's why on the train one day I realised that we had to make it into a notepad that anyone might use to write down notes and share them with others or keep them for themselves. When I got to work that day, the first thing I did was say to Shimizu-san that we should call it Ugoku Memocho (moving memo pad) - or Ugomemo for short - rather than Flipnote. Do you remember?

Yes.

After that we thought about allowing you to exchange what you'd made using Flipnote with your friends in front of you using Nintendo DS's local communication ability, but we realised that alone wasn't enough. The software Shimizu-san had originally made connected Wii and DS and displayed lots of notes all lined up on the Wii screen.

The Wii console took the place of a network server, allowing data to be exchanged with the Nintendo DS.

We talked about making it into WiiWare³, so if you connected to the network you could exchange notes with lots of people, not just with your friends. At the time, we didn't know anything about the Nintendo DSi.

Only a few people within the company knew about it at that time.

The first thing we thought of was using the Nintendo DS download feature to put a WiiWare art tool into your Nintendo DS. In other words, you would download Flipnote Studio, and then return your creations to the WiiWare tool and save them. Then we talked about making something like a bulletin board so you could share your saved notes with lots of people over the Internet using Wii. About that time, Takashi Tezuka came on a business trip from Kyoto.

That was when you first heard about the Nintendo DSi.

Right. We realised the Nintendo DSi was perfect for what we were making.

What did Tezuka-san say about that?

At the time, our project was merely in its trial stages. He said that if we didn't hurry up and give it to the world, we would miss our window of opportunity.

Tezuka-san probably sensed that it was different from other products. He came to me to discuss enlisting the cooperation of the Network Development Department.

When it came to making your own notes and enjoying them, I had faith in Flipnote, but some people, like the programmer I mentioned, simply enjoy looking at what other people have made. So in order to have lots of people enjoy themselves, I thought we definitely needed something like an Internet bulletin board.

When I heard about that, I thought we wouldn't be able to release Flipnote Studio until the latter half of 2009, because the Network Development Department's schedule was crammed full of other projects far into the future. I thought it would take forever for Nintendo alone to construct a system including a server.

I remember you thought long and hard about it, and then suddenly jumped up.

I did?

Then, after thinking about it some more while standing up, you sat down in your chair backwards, with your arms wrapped around the seat back... (laughs) Then, as if you'd just had a flash of inspiration, you said, "We'll work with Hatena."

Oh, that's right. (laughs)

Then you added, almost as if talking to yourself, "That would be cool. That would be cool." We didn't know what you were talking about. (laughs)

I was just lost in my own little world?! (laughs)

(laughs)

I think a lot of ideas in your head suddenly connected.

I've met Mochio Umeda⁴, an external board member of Hatena, about three times, and their research and development team had moved to Kyoto, so I thought if the chance ever arose we could make something interesting together.

Our Network Development Department was forming a loose connection with them, but I thought it would be boring if it didn't amount to anything more than a casual business acquaintance. I kept wondering if we couldn't do something ground-breaking. Just then this new project dropped into my lap, and all these random bits in my head came together.

Shigeru Miyamoto always says that a true idea is "something which solves multiple issues at once" and I thought that this was just such a moment.

Sitting backwards in my chair. (laughs)

That was quite a sight!

Yeah, now I remember. (laughs)

Koizumi-san, when you heard I thought it would be good if Hatena worked on it, what did you think?

I was really surprised. Until then we had planned on doing it all in-house. Besides, they're like a championship team from Koshien Stadium. (Koshien Stadium is where the Japanese National High School Baseball Tournament finals are held each year)

(laughs)

So how was your first game against - your first meeting with - these champs?

First we gave them a simple presentation. At first we sat at a big table across from each other, and began explaining using presentation software, but halfway through it got complicated (laughs), so I asked if I could go over to their side of the table, took the Nintendo DS, and sat down between Kondo-san and Ninomiya-san.

Because the quickest way to understand is to look at the actual product. (laughs)

I was like, "This goes like this, and when this happens, bingo!" And after they'd looked it over, I explained what we had in mind for the network. Then they hit us with a barrage of questions, so I knew we should ask them to work on it. (laughs)

Koshien is the ballpark of champions. (laughs)

(laughs)

Kondo-san, what did you think when someone from Nintendo suddenly sat down next to you?

At Hatena we hardly ever use presentation software. Our motto is "Show them the real thing!" so it felt right to me. I thought, "Oh, they're like us!" (laughs)

In that area they're exactly like us. First they make a test model, something that actually works to a certain degree, look at it together, and then say, "No, not like that..." or "No, not like this...".

When Koizumi-san sat down next to me and started energetically saying, "This is like this, and when you do this, see, isn't that cool?" I thought he was a lot like Kondo-san. (laughs)

(laughs)

Kondo-san is known for exclaiming, "I just hit on something amazing! Look!" (laughs) Then he shows us an idea he whipped up on his notebook computer. Adding the specific features comes later. Koizumi-san was a lot like that.

The same. (laughs)

Yes, I thought so.

Shimizu-san, I don't act like that, do I?

Well, maybe once every three days or so.

(laughs)

Kondo-san, when you first heard about this software, what did you think?

Be honest! (laughs)

To tell the truth, I wondered what in the world it was. I wondered if you could really sell it as a game.

You wondered what these two had in mind for this...whatever-it-was. (laughs)

(laughs) At the time, we didn't know much about the Nintendo DSi, so we thought it would be sold normally as packaged software. We wondered what kind of people would buy it.

(laughs)

Besides, I hadn't drawn flick book animation since junior high school, so software allowing me to do so wasn't exactly enticing, but when I saw how it worked, it made quite an impression on me. I felt like saying, "Let me try it!" Then, when I heard that it would be available for free download onto the new Nintendo DSi, I understood.

Koizumi-san, once they had the concept, how did you introduce the idea of the bulletin board?

I envisioned a bulletin board to which users could submit lots of their own creations. I told them that we wanted them to make the board a gathering point for users - a community - where the users themselves would determine the rules, instead of us trying to check every single one of them.

I suggested a plus-minus point system so everyone could score each other's creations - a system by which more and more people would view the good ones and ignore the ones that weren't so great - but they had an even better idea.

Kondo-san, what kind of idea was it?

When I first heard about it, I imagined something that would not have to be monitored 24 hours a day, something that wouldn't make users wait for approval before their creations could be posted.

If it did need to be monitored that much, it wouldn't feel live, and the more popular it became, the harder it would be for those facilitating the site.

Right. If users knew someone was watching, they might feel intimidated. And we got rid of the minus points.

Why?

Well, the Nintendo DSi is supposed to be fun. A minus button for negative evaluations on the screen would detract from that. Besides, if you gave someone a minus, you would need to give them some kind of reason as feedback, and if you submitted something and got three minuses, you wouldn't like it very much. Then, even if you couldn't be certain, you'd start wondering who gave you a minus and consider giving one in return. It would be a vicious circle.

It could get out of control. But if evaluations have to be positive, people might submit inappropriate material.

So we adopted a "reporting" system. Speaking from Hatena's past experience, suppose one million people award others a star as a positive evaluation. About one in ten thousand would report works that they thought weren't appropriate. We thought it would be more enjoyable if we set it up so that only certain people were able to report and as many people as possible were only able to praise.

Who are the "certain people"?

Web users. Once a certain period of time has passed, only works that haven't been reported on, even once, can be displayed on a Nintendo DSi.

In other words, when a user submits his or her animation, it first appears openly on the Internet for viewing on personal computers and the like. If Hatena's users see it and feel like there's a problem within a relatively short period of time, they will report it to Hatena as inappropriate.

Right. It's designed so that if there's even one report, it can't be sent to a Nintendo DSi. But once a certain amount of time has passed, it's deemed acceptable for a broader audience and can be viewed on a Nintendo DSi. Hatena has lots of users who might report to us, so I wanted to borrow their help in realising a safety filter.

Your previous experience really came in handy.

Not just our experience, but our users as well. People who only use the Nintendo DSi might feel like something is a little amiss since none of the posts are inappropriate.

I suppose so. They might think that nothing inappropriate gets posted because someone at Nintendo is checking the posts 24 hours a day.

Probably. But the truth is, since Hatena users are cooperating behind the scenes, users can feel reassured. And we at Hatena want to do our best as well.

Working together with such experienced individuals such as yourselves allows the addition of features that we would otherwise be incapable of. You're really helping us out.

With Flipnote Studio, you don't just view and evaluate others' creations, you can also rework them.

That's right. I call it "participatory animation." For the most part, each animation submitted will have been created by just one person, but with Flipnote, you can tinker with what someone else has made. Anyone can continue what someone else has started.

In other words, cooperation, not just competition.

Right. You can just add sound, or only pictures, or only words to what someone else has made. There are a variety of ways to participate. For example, someone who isn't good at drawing may post something composed only of words. Someone else may see it, download it, and decide to add voice, or pictures, make their own additions, and then upload the new version. Then someone may see that new version and decide to add in his or her own illustrations. The original work may pass through numerous hands and end up as something that was unimaginable at the start.

If lots of people alter it, then won't it be impossible to tell whom it belongs to?

The original creator's name will be kept on file. As others download the animation and alter it, their names will be added as collaborators to a sort of credits list, which will be viewable. I think everyone will be happy to see their participation kept on record like that.

Yes, I think so, too.

Even though the original creator won't change, the creation may end a different way. So the person who threw out the first idea will be extremely interested in how it turned out in the end. You won't just upload something and then forget about it, you'll be checking in on it all the time.

So the animations' narratives also move.

That's exactly right.

I'm looking forward to seeing the animations grow and branch out like a family history until bam - you've got a big tree!

The original creator will be a kind of family ancestor! (laughs) So, what do you have in store for Flipnote Studio from now on?

There's so much we want to do, so it could be quite a while before it all gets done. First, we want to release it this year, with Hatena starting up its Flipnote Hatena service at the same time.

That's right.

When service actually starts, there will be lots of submissions, and we'll begin to see what will be there to make it more fun. Once that's happened, I want to add new services, release Flipnote Studio Version 2, and reflect in it what we've found that makes Flipnote Studio more interesting. We also plan to introduce the credits list function I mentioned earlier. After that, I want to open it to the whole world so people everywhere can view and evaluate a wide variety of animation.

What do you envision happening for you to call it a success?

To tell you the truth, I have no idea what kind of animation will be submitted once the software is released. That's because, as I've been working together with Kondo-san, animation far surpassing anything we ever expected has shown up. For example, notes like diary entries composed entirely of words, and unique creations, using photos, that can't really be called flick book animation.

Like something beyond flick book animation?

Yes. I want the whole genre to be called Flipnote.

So you would consider it a success if Flipnote as a proper noun fell into common use.

Right. My true wish is that groups of works in a variety of expressive forms will come to be referred to as Flipnote, and that hidden talents all over the world will use Flipnote as a stage for displaying their skills.

How do you imagine success for Flipnote Studio, Kondo-san?

Version 1 of Flipnote Studio is fairly pared down, so all you can do is upload posts from your Nintendo DSi, and view new posts and the popularity ranking on the web. It isn't anything that incredible.

That's partially because of scheduling constraints, but because it's so simple and doesn't have its own distinct flavour, I'm looking forward to seeing a lot of posts that completely blow away my expectations.

The channels also look fun.

Yes, they do. As a way of categorising the animation, we're planning different "channels." For example, stick people. In other words, we think a lot of people will use simple lines to draw animations of people. So we're going to prepare channels, like a Stick Person Channel, for example. Those categories will start on Ugomemo Hatena and then be available for Nintendo DSi with Version 2. Also, we want the animation to be downloadable to mobile phones so you can enjoy Flipnote anywhere, anytime.

Ninomiya-san, as a designer, do you have a different viewpoint on this?

In 2007, we released a service called Hatena Haiku that allowed anyone to easily use their mouse to draw a picture and post it, but drawing pictures with a mouse is a kind of constraint.

The Nintendo DSi, however, has a stylus, so you can draw pictures more easily, and with Nintendo DSi Camera you can easily take photos and add them straight into what you're making, so I feel that we will be able to reach a point that we couldn't have on our own*.

I feel like our efforts this time will be able to open the doors to two worlds, the Web on personal computers and the Nintendo DSi. You can only make Flipnote Studio animation on the Nintendo DSi, but you can view it on both the Nintendo DSi and a personal computer. Viewing multiple animations at once or searching for them might be easier on personal computers, but the Nintendo DSi is better for easily viewing them wherever you may be. So I feel like we can accomplish something that until now couldn't be done on a personal computer alone and couldn't be done only on a game console either.

Also, I think we will see personal computer users and Nintendo DSi users mixing with each other. People who until now have had nothing to do with Hatena before will encounter it, and people who have never had a game console will take an interest in the Nintendo DSi. I'm hoping that these two different groups will encounter each other through Flipnote to create a world we've never seen before.

Kondo-san, you're an engineer, but as a leader at Hatena, you have to look after the business side of things as well. When setting foot in unexplored territory, such as with this project, you can't simply say, "We're doing it because it's fun." It's the same for me. (laughs)

Even when you don't know whether something will succeed or fail until it's released, you still take certain objectives to heart and make decisions based on them. What would those be for you this time?

As I've worked on Hatena, I've assumed that the Internet will continue to change people's lives. But people around the world are still not making full use of it.

You feel most people are unaware of the Internet's true potential and only use its superficial aspects, when it should be able to change the world for the better?

Right. For example, consider all the people out there you see riding the train. For every ten people, probably only one or two make good use of the Internet every day. I think that from now on, the Internet is going to change our lifestyles in fundamental ways, but I have a vague feeling that as it exists right now, it hasn't reached a point where everyone finds it accessible.

That's why, to tell you the truth, when it came to this project I sensed unexplored territory out there. But as for what will happen when video game players get on the Net...

We don't know.

Right. We don't know. It's unknown territory for us, so maybe it will offer up clues to services that we, as an Internet company, should provide. That's why I thought there was value in accepting the challenge and seeing what happens. But if you asked me how much profit we expect from this project, I'd have to say I don't know. (laughs)

(laughs)

We take the approach that we want to do everything we can. Especially since we've come all the way to Kyoto.

I'm excited about this, too. Until recently it's often been said that the video game world is somewhat closed, so when that world enters the extremely open world of the Internet, I wonder how it will reach people around the world and how they will use it.

I feel the same way. More than unsure, I'm excited.

Is there anything else you may have forgotten to mention?

My son is in the second grade of elementary school. I've been working all this time on Internet services, but my son has never touched a single one of them.

I suppose he's still too young.

But I think this may be the first service I've made that he will use. I'm really looking forward to that.

What a nice thought. (laughs)

I think from now on the relationship between Nintendo's game consoles and the Internet will deepen now that there's a way for people to easily bring their ideas to life and present them to others - the same way that today they fire off emails right and left. Flipnote Studio can be a place where people share their creations with each other and offer each other applause.

I would love it if Flipnote Studio led the way for software making it possible for people to share their creativity in that way. Everyone, let's give it our best! (laughs) Thank you for sharing your thoughts today.