There’s plenty of excitement still in the air following the Last Story presentation¹, and this evening I am lucky enough to have the opportunity to speak to both Sakaguchi-san and Takahashi-san. Thank you very much for joining me.

Thank you.

Sakaguchi-san, I was able to make it here from Kyoto today a little ahead of schedule, which enabled me to join you. I’m sorry if my impromptu appearance caused you any trouble! (laughs)

No, no! It’s fine! Nothing beats the excitement of doing something live, right? (laughs) As soon as it ended, I watched it again on the Internet and I could really see how nervous the four of us were when you joined us up on the stage. (laughs)

(laughter)

And we looked incredibly relieved when you left the stage! (laughs)

Well, this is all part and parcel of a live event! (laughs) When you watch something that’s been rehearsed beforehand, you can always tell.

Yes, you always know.

No, I really thought your acting skills were something else. I knew this interview was taking place today, so I thought the whole thing was pre-planned. But it all looked really genuine. It was very impressive! (laughs)

Ah, come on. It was nothing really! (laughs)

No, he’s right! I could never pull off a performance like that! (laughs)

Look, none of us are professional actors! (laughs) Now, I gathered before we began this interview that you haven’t seen each other for quite a while. I know that you both worked together at Square², but I’d like to know how long it has been since you last met.

What year did you leave Square, Taka-chan (Takahashi)?

It was 1999. Then we met once about three years after that, didn’t we?

Which makes it eight years since we last met.

How closely did you work together when you were at Square?

Back then, Taka-chan was the top graphic design man in the FF team. You started work on the series from FFIV³, right?

That’s right. I joined when we were working on FFIV.

Right, and I can still clearly remember being really taken aback by how realistic your design for the stone wall in the background was. I remember thinking: ‘That’s really something!’

It was just at that time when people started to take note of the quality of the graphics of the Final Fantasy series. It was a period when the leaps that were being taken technologically on video game hardware meant a dramatic raising of the bar for realistic graphics.

That’s right. It was just at this point that Taka-chan joined us. I’m really grateful for all you did for me back then! (bows)

No, no! (laughs) Thank you! (bows)

Takahashi-san, what was your first impression of Sakaguchi-san?

Let me think... Well, back then there was still a culture of gaming on home computers and I had been a fan of titles Sakaguchi-san had been responsible for, such as Cruise Chaser Blassty⁴. So I thought of him as someone who had created games that I had spent a lot of time playing.

I think that there is a real difference in viewing a creator from a distance, and then seeing them close-up. How did you find working alongside Sakaguchi-san?

What I always found really impressive was how he would get to the office before anyone else and be the last to leave. He was someone who was always at his desk, with a capacity for work far beyond that of a regular person.

I’d imagine you weren’t staying at the office late because you were trying to impress anyone. It’s rather that when you’re focused on making something that’s really good, the more time you put into it, the better it gets. And then before you realise, it’s got late.

Sure enough, those were the days when things were very hands on. I can still remember the sight of Taka-chan at his desk. There was a good atmosphere back then, with everyone really focused on what they were doing.

This was a time when you could see the results of your efforts really clearly reflected in the end product, which served to motivate you.

There was a lot of responsibility, but at the same time, you felt the effort you put in was worthwhile.

Back then, the FF team were developing those titles at quite a clip, giving them real depth, and making them vast in scale. How did you structure the team in order to successfully bring about those dramatic developments in the evolution of the series?

Well, a really important element was that we were able to gather an impressive pool of talent, including Taka-chan of course. Then there were also the improvements in the hardware which increased the range of what was possible. For instance, even if there was just the smallest tweak in the amount of memory available for graphics, it would inspire the craftsman in you to make something of it. There was a real sense at that time that we had to constantly change and improve things.

Back then, arcade machines had higher specifications than home consoles, so our ambition was to create something that would surpass them.

So you’d be fired up with the desire to really impress players using consumer electronics which at that time were not on the cutting edge of technology.

That’s right. Back then, we were free to design things as we saw fit. Do you remember the Magitek Armor that appears in the opening sequence of FFVI⁵?

Yes, I do.

Now, I actually wanted to make it identical to the Magitek Armor that appears in the game. But Taka-chan went ahead and drew it his own way... (laughs) And he really came up with something amazing.

So you had no choice but to admit that it was better than what you’d originally had in mind.

Right. And it hurt a bit to admit it! (laughs) I’d say this kind of thing was pretty common back then.

Well, I know how team spirit gets a real boost when everyone is coming up with all kinds of ideas, and those ideas are gelling well together.

Taka-chan has always had a talent for motivating people and bringing them together as a team.

But back then Square had its own particular culture. On the one hand, there was a real desire to change things, while at the same time there was this sense that things shouldn’t be tampered with. I would always worry about whether I was on the right track.

Is that right? Wow... It’s amazing to hear about people’s worries and fears back then after all these years. (laughs)

But there’s always the need to actively push things forward, otherwise nothing changes.

So after meeting, how long did you work together for?

I was on the FF team up to VI. Partway through VII⁶, I left the team. I stayed at the same company, but I was in charge of a separate team.

I remember that back then those teams would always be dividing into smaller units. If someone displayed leadership skills, they would be given the independence of having their own team. At the same time, they would often ask me: ‘Is Final Fantasy all this company can let me create?’ I used to worry about that.

When you keep on repeating the same thing, even if it’s something of real value, people start to lose that sense of it being special. There need to be fresh ideas added to the mix. But there was a lot of disagreement over just what kind of fresh ideas were needed.

Right. But Taka-chan had some really good people working for him, and I think it was for the best that he got to head his own team.

So how did you come to head up your own independent team, Takahashi-san?

I recall going to see Sakaguchi-san and telling him that I was looking for a new challenge. That was when we were all in the middle of FFVII.

FFVII marked a real turning point in the series. For someone who was such an integral part of it to start out on their own, well, Sakaguchi-san, it must have been hard to lose him, even while you wished him the best.

Yes. That’s true. If I’m being honest, I felt a little lonely. One really clear memory I have is that no sooner had Taka-chan formed a separate team than his desk became completely covered in Gundam models and toy guns. It was then that I realised he’d always wanted to work on this kind of thing.

It was as if he’d graduated.

Right. Well, that was just the sense I got...

...So that’s what you were thinking! (laughs)

When you left the FF team, what kind of thing did you want to do?

I wanted to see whether we could make a game entirely in 3D, not simply the event scenes. My initial motivation was to try to make games that achieved that.

So you wanted to utilise 3D in a way that differed from its use in FFVII.

That’s right. I felt that the company needed to develop knowledge on how to utilise 3D in a different way from that of VII. I wanted to make levels entirely three-dimensional and allow the player to freely alter the angle they view the game world at.

There’s a real difference between simply being responsible for the graphics, and coming up with entire game concepts and bringing all the necessary elements together.

Indeed there is, and I really had to feel my way at first.

But back then, everyone was just feeling their way.

FFVII was entirely a process of feeling our way.

I’d go as far as saying that, back then, there was hardly anyone who had a clear conception of what the finished product would be from the start.

Ninety percent of my team were actually new kids who didn’t know the first thing about 3D. The most difficult thing was the psychological side: helping people adjust to the team, talking through their worries and concerns with them, and so on. It was then that I realised that Sakaguchi-san had been dealing with this kind of thing all along.

It’s only when you fly the nest that you realise what your parents did for you! (laughs)

I see what you mean!

Sakaguchi-san, when did you first become aware that it was essential to look after your team? The first FF was done in a short space of time, with few people on board, so I’d imagine that you didn’t have much time to be thinking about the psychological well-being of your staff.

You’re right. But up to FF III⁷, we worked with a really gifted foreign programmer who didn’t speak Japanese or really understand RPGs. This called for a specific kind of supervision. So I’d take him out for a steak every day and... (laughs)

You took him for steak every day? That’s quite something! (laughs)

All he would eat was steak. I knew that I had to make sure that all was well with the main programmer. While that wasn’t a case of looking after the entire team, that was an example of the kind of care I took of my staff.

You lived through the era of the Super Famicom when there were huge changes in game development, with ROM with more memory capacity at your disposal and increased graphical capabilities. But then when Takahashi-san got his own team and began to make a name for himself, it heralded the arrival of an even more radical change: 3D. As game development rapidly became more and more specialised, with 3D and improved graphics, there was still no defined or agreed method for making a game using them.

You’re right.

With the arrival of the 3D, there was a clean slate in terms of the way games would be made, which caused all kinds of trouble for the industry as a whole.

Most people didn’t even know the correct terminology for the new types of computer graphics. When you added to that the fact that you were trying to run a team, it really felt like you were casting yourself into a storm by carrying a number of people.

Facing the immense challenge of running your own team, what was it that spurred you on and kept you going?

Let me think. Well, I had a strong sense that I could definitely do this, that it was going to be alright. That was the only thing I could really fall back on. Now when I look back at it, I realise that if I’d done more to inspire that same feeling in my staff, it would have been easier to build a team.

Even when you can’t make out what’s up ahead, that strong desire to make something happen can pull people together and get them to make it to the end. That may be something that the young are especially good at.

Right. And even if it was somewhat reckless, we managed to push through and get the job done.

Things that end up being incredible tend to start off looking like crazy ideas. I wonder if sticking too much to what’s tried and tested can actually hold you back.

I would say so. I think we went about things the right way.

It really feels like what we did then has built what we have now.

Compared to the way things once were, the number of elements you have to juggle when creating a game have hugely increased. It’s for this reason that games have developed so much, while at the same time you’re left with the feeling that they have also lost something they once had.

Yes, I can see that. You could say they’re missing that artisanal aspect, that craftsmanship.

You can’t compete in today’s market if you’re relying on craftsmanship alone. You need to somehow combine it successfully with modern industrial processes.

It could be that the ‘spirit’ that inspired that craftsmanship has grown weaker.

To what degree that spirit of craftsmanship that the pioneers of game development possessed has been passed on to the younger generation, I wonder. In the past, there was a lot of scope to influence things with your own efforts, so the people who made games had a grasp of all aspects of game creation. This meant that they developed a natural ability to judge what was important, as well as the determination and tenacity to achieve it. I think that’s the true meaning of craftsmanship. But as the method of creating games has changed, the amount that one person can do has shrunk, and a barrier has appeared between the way developers once thought and the way the new generation approach game creation. Now I’d say it’s really important for those who’ve been involved in game creation for a long time to play the role so that the younger generation put their faith in what their senior developers are doing.

This is true. Simply because you’ve been involved in games for years doesn’t necessarily mean your technical skills are superb. But I think what you do have is determination and tenacity. That can become the glue that binds a team together, and when you combine that with the technical skills of the younger members, games themselves will change.

I really felt that The Last Story and Xenoblade Chronicles⁸ took shape thanks to that kind of determination. We at Nintendo were right there with you in order to see those games through to the end.

Now that you mention it, the release date for both titles was delayed, wasn’t it?

We’d often talk about which game would be the first to come out. (laughs)

I used to be faster, but this time I was beaten to the punch. (laughs)

Something I’ve felt recently is that a lot of people of our generation have taken on roles as producers, and that they’ve actually been too hasty to distance themselves from the actual game development process. If you look at films or animation, people in their fifties or sixties remain very active. If we retire from actually making games, that spirit of craftsmanship won’t be handed down to the next generation. That’s why I think it’s better that we maintain a hands-on role in the game development process.

Right, I really felt like I’d gone back to the coalface this time. By getting involved in the day-to-day creative process, I think that the determination and tenacity I possessed came into play and may well have changed the way the team worked together.

At the very least, if Sakaguchi-san hadn’t been the director, or if Takahashi-san had put distance between himself and the dev team, those titles would not have become the games they turned out to be. The younger team members really reaped the benefits from the determination and craftsmanship you both possess.

In the Last Story presentation, Fujisaka-san⁹ spoke about the time he was working late at the office when Sakaguchi-san came in after a night out, gave instructions regarding the design of the logo, and then went home again. I was really able to picture that scene. Sakaguchi-san has always been like that, hasn’t he? (laughs) If he tells someone what to do, they have no choice but to get on with it. But I think that’s really important.

I think that’s possible because there is such a deep trust in Sakaguchi-san. If you do something just because the boss has told you to, you won’t put your heart and soul into it. You need to have faith that the person giving you instructions has thought about things more deeply than you. Then, even if your opinions differ, in the end you’ll be happy to do what you can to help them achieve their vision.

A lot of facts are coming to light in this interview, aren’t they? (laughs)

Do you think that you do that kind of thing unconsciously?

Indeed, I don’t do it consciously. Now, with ideas that I couldn’t have had myself, such as the Magitek Armor we spoke about earlier, I have nothing to say. What’s important is being on the same wavelength as me. If a piece of the jigsaw is the wrong shape, it can be a real pain to fix it once the product is finished. You have to make that change early on. I think I’m able to tell instantly if an element is out of sync with the overall direction of the game. I get the sense that when I spot something like that, I’m liable to point it out in no uncertain terms and then storm off home. I mean, I can’t be sure, but I get that sense. (laughs)

But with the graphics, you’re quite open to other suggestions, aren’t you?

Yes, I’d say so. I mean, I can’t draw, so if it was left to my imagination, I think the game world would be lacking and limited. The important thing is to have a vivid game world that’s full of life, and the best way to achieve that is to let the experts get on with creating that world.

In the end, you were able to do that because you trusted the filter that Takahashi-san had.

Yes, that’s right. It’s something I’ve always found curious, but there are those people who can draw and those who just can’t. Leaving aside individual abilities, even when they alter their approach, people who are really able to draw can still create really vibrant artwork. I’m not sure what explains this gap. Taka-chan, why do you think there’s this gap between people who can and can’t draw?

I think it might be a question of imagination. At least in my own experience, it starts with the story Sakaguchi-san comes up with, and then you try to envisage what you should be aiming at, what you’re trying to create. You then make suggestions within that framework of what you perceive that Sakaguchi-san is aiming for.

So you mean you come up with things you think would work well in the gameworld based on the hints given by Sakaguchi-san?

Yes. If you can’t do that, you’ll end up coming up with something that differs from the game that was originally conceived. This is something I often say in my company, but it’s incredibly important that no matter what element you’re working on to be able to envisage what others are thinking and trying to achieve. I think you could call this empathy.

Ah, I see. Empathy is a good way of putting it.

If you don’t have that empathy with the end user, you won’t be able to create elements they’ll embrace. This empathy isn’t just something between developers and players. It also needs to exist between the core members of the dev team and the other staff.

To put it another way, if you yourself cannot create your mindset of, “I want to achieve empathy!” right from the start, you’re in trouble. I get it... First, you need to have that empathy among your staff. Well, Taka-chan, you’ve really come up with some words of wisdom there! (laughs) If the team members are in sync, they can come up with a game world that surpasses the one I had envisaged. And that’s precisely why we should all join forces to aim as high as we possibly can.

I think that’s true. Remember in the old days when we were doing debugging in our office, everyone would come in on the last day and play through the game. That was a lot of fun, wasn’t it?

You’re right, that was great. We’d finish the job, have a beer, and we might even shed a few tears.

Uematsu-san¹⁰ cried the most, didn’t he? (laughs)

He really cried a lot! (laughs) But the games made in those conditions never went far wrong, did they? That’s also an example of being in sync. If everyone has empathy for each other, you’ll end up with a real sense of unity.

And that energy ends up transferred to the actual games themselves.

Thinking about the games that the two of you have made, to what degree do you feel that you’ve achieved what you set out to achieve?

People conceive that the games that you have created, ‘The Last Story’ and ‘Xenoblade Chronicles’, differ fundamentally from the more typical Nintendo games made by Miyamoto-san and others. What were your thoughts when you were making these games by working closely with Nintendo?

I’d like to ask these two questions to both of you. Let’s begin with you, Takahashi-san?

Okay. Well, with regard to releasing games on Nintendo systems, at first Hatano-san, who is the head of the marketing department, as well as being a Monolith executive, said that we should only produce games with our own unique style, and to always give great importance to taking a romanticist approach. But at first, I didn’t really understand what he meant by this.

Ah, yes. Hatano-san said the same thing to me.

I’m sorry to interrupt, but I should clarify that Hatano-san is responsible for overseeing domestic sales and marketing, while at the same time overseeing the licencing department that deals with software manufacturers. This means he gets a lot of game proposals from external companies. So the marketing department was the first point of contact for both you, Sakaguchi-san, and for Monolith Soft. Once development gets under way, you dealt mainly with one of our Software Planning and Development teams headed by Hitoshi Yamagami. I heard from Hatano-san that he suggested this same key concept to both of you: to develop the games with a romanticist approach.

Xenoblade Chronicles was created as an exploration of what this romanticist approach might mean in the context of video games. But it wasn’t a case of Nintendo telling us to do whatever we may want to do. Rather, we were told to do what we are good at, which was a great relief.

That was something we were adamant about from the start. As I’ve often discussed with Hatano-san and Yamagami-san, it’s extremely important to allow dev teams to play to their strengths. That initial concept never changed: we wanted games that allowed Takahashi-san and Sakaguchi-san to put their own personal stamp on them. But Hatano-san set you a kind of riddle by giving you that concept of the romanticist approach. He wanted you to explore what it meant. What I think it means is that he wanted you to create a title where the story and gameworld would resonate with a large number of people and inspire them. The message Nintendo sent was to play to your strengths and use all your capabilities to realise that vision.

When we were at the initial stages of determining the features the game would have, one issue we discussed was that it might be better for us to include Nintendo-esque aspects since it is going to be a title to be published by Nintendo. We were looking for the best way to add that quality to the game, and as you can imagine, we had a fair bit of trouble at first.

Yes, we gave you a good deal to worry about at the start. I think that we may not have given you enough support with regard to that issue. When we work with a game developer for the first time, sometimes they paid too much consideration to Nintendo-esque aspects and ended up not being able to display the real strength of the development team. This time when we dealt with Monolith Soft, I think we managed to finally establish a way to work together successfully after a number of communications. It’s the same with you, Sakaguchi-san. The sense of distance between the two parties was completely different this time round compared to the days of ASH¹¹.

You’re right. It felt completely different.

When making a game in that way, Nintendo and Mario Club stand in for the final consumer, and we look at how to appeal to both of them. I think that in the course of that process, we finally arrived at an efficient way to make the game.

If you take the key concept of empathy which we just discussed, you were creating games in such a way that the scope of people who emphathise with them gradually broadens. There’s a common misconception that by broadening the game’s scope in this way, you will weaken it. But I disagree. Nintendo has tried to show a lot of its tenacity, as you did, Takahashi-san, in the development completion period of this title, and I think the determination on both sides acted to spur us all on.

Yes, it felt like Nintendo has blocked our escape route. (laughs) I think a trait we have is to judge things from the perspective of the game creator sometimes, and this can end in an attitude of: ‘Look, this is the only way we can do it, so it’ll have to do.’ But that’s not the case. It’s important to view things from the perspective of the player, which is something Nintendo helped us to do. This meant that if there was something that needed to be done, I just had to steel myself and get it done to get things right from the player’s perspective.

In that sense, Nintendo’s job is to make sure you have no escape route. Now that it’s over, are you glad you took this approach?

Well, everyone really is glad, though it wasn’t easy by any means. What leaves the deepest impression for me is when friends and relatives play the game and give me positive feedback. So I really feel like Nintendo put us on the right path, and I’m very glad we did it in that way.

At the Last Story presentation, Sakaguchi-san mentioned that the debug phase lasted nine months, but I believe that we actually had more people working on the debug for Xenoblade Chronicles! (laughs)

Wow!

Well, the number of possible combinations of quests and items meant there was a huge volume of content. But I believe that the player will be able to see the effort you’ve put in.

Did you always intend to have that volume of data in the game?

Well, I had an inkling from the start that it would turn out as it did...

I see. So the game was structured that way. But in the end, you managed to include everything you wanted to, right?

Yes. We were still adding major features right up to the last minute.

Whew... Well, now that my title is already completed, I can laugh when I hear that. But not so long ago, it would have made me feel very nervous. (laughs)

Thanks to all the effort you made, the overall satisfaction the player will get has greatly increased, making it all worthwhile.

Sakaguchi-san, how do you feel about the way The Last Story turned out, and about working alongside Nintendo in general?

Just like Taka-chan, I was asked to make a game along romanticist lines. For me, going along with this theme didn’t pose a problem, as I had always intended to include that all-important drama that takes place between a man and a woman. Actually, as the project progressed, the way I conceived of this theme changed until it became a game that was more about companionship than anything else.

But the initial story and theme you came up with never fundamentally altered. I get the sense that in the process of making the game, more and more elements were added that enhanced the tempo, realism and responsiveness.

Yes, that’s right. I really feel we were lucky in the sense that some of those ideas were like seeds that sprouted unexpectedly - then we watered them, and they grew into a forest. As for working alongside Nintendo, when I worked on FFIII, there was an internal software evaluation system in place at Nintendo, though it wasn’t known as Mario Club back then.

Yes, that’s right. There was.

I remember that someone wrote on their report: ‘I’d like to work on something like this someday’. To tell you the truth, I’ve never actually told anyone about this before.

Back then, the Mario Club structure didn’t exist, so staff at the company would write down their assessment of games. This means that members of dev teams would also have been giving their feedback, which explains you getting a response like that.

Ah, I see. So members of dev teams were also taking part. That actually left quite an impression on me, and since then I’ve had the sense that staff at Nintendo really understand where I’m coming from. That gave me a degree of confidence, in an odd sort of way. (laughs) It was a pleasant surprise, I must say. I spent four days working together with Mario Club this time round because I used to have that experience.

Well, it was a really nice surprise for us at Nintendo when you spent four days with Mario Club, really taking on board their opinions and ideas. That gave an opportunity for significant input on our side.

My main purpose was indeed to get that input, but I did have another objective. I wanted to leave something with Mario Club... I wanted to mark it with my scent, so it would still be there when it became time for the fine-tuning at the end of the project. I hoped that having my scent hanging round the place would create that ‘empathy’ we discussed. To ensure we worked together well, with a shared goal, I took the opportunity to mark the place with my scent. (laughs) I think that helped us work together really well right to the end.

So that’s why members of the team at Mario Club cried when the nine month debug phase ended. I’m sure it’s because they felt like members of the dev team too.

That’s right. I mean, I didn’t plan it all out to that extent, but it’s true that I have an ability to get people caught up in the process with me. I don’t know if it’s a good or bad trait, but there you have it. (laughs)

Sakaguchi-san has a real talent for creating a certain atmosphere. I think that’s something I’ve never really been able to do, though I’d really love to be able to someday.

Well, yes. It’s that rather odd self-confidence I have. Maybe it’s misguided, a kind of excessive optimism.

People who give out a lot of energy must be getting that energy from somewhere. The way I think of those sources of energy is that they are a form of reward. I’m sure one of your energy sources is the response you get from events like the Last Story presentation. There was undoubtedly a lot of pressure on you, but when you saw the audience’s response, I’m sure you got a huge boost.

Yes, indeed I did.

And Takahashi-san, while Xenoblade Chronicles has been out for quite a while now, you must get a real boost from all the players who are still enjoying it and talking about it.

Yes, of course. But actually, there are times when I want people to be more critical. I’m actually the type of person who gets fired up by negative energy... (laughs)

I see! (laughs)

Is that right?

Then, we should all forward you any and all requests we have without any hesitation. (laughs)

Be careful what you wish for! (laughs)

Well, it’s all a delicate balance...

No matter how thoroughly you work on something, there are always going to be things that you weren’t able to quite achieve. And then when you end a project, these serve to lead you into the next one.

Right. You’ll sometimes hit upon great ideas in the middle of a project that you wouldn’t be able to include unless you had included them from the start.

When you’re busy with something, all those disparate ideas you have often start to connect, and it’s easier to hit upon good ones.

Things which at first don’t seem to have any connection can be brought together and then in turn give birth to other ideas. Oh, and there’s another thing: I’d really like to work with you again, Takahashi-san. Sorry to bring that up out of the blue! (laughs)

Well, it’s been a while, hasn’t it? About a decade.

I’d like to see how the two of you play off each other.

I wonder. After a couple of months, one of us might storm off and that would be the end of that.

Or maybe if we could just make it through that initial period, then we’d stick it out right to the end.

You’re both saying the same thing, I notice! (laughs) It seems you know exactly how it would be...

When we’re on the same wavelength, then we’re really a perfect match. (laughs) But I think that’s why when we were at Square, we both wanted to work on different things, on different wavelengths.

You know, if we gave a completely different genre a try, it might end up working well.

That might work. A puzzle game, let’s say. We could make the graphics more geometrical, or create some kind of simulation. That could be fun! (laughs)

How would you define an RPG?

Well, there are certain fundamental elements, such as a particular worldview, the story, movie sequences, and characters. The essential elements are characters with real individuality and a unique worldview. When these two elements are fused and form the twin peaks of a high mountain, well, I think that’s my concept of an RPG. In the Square era, I would often say: ‘I’m going to make an interactive movie!’ To be honest, I now feel differently about that. I’m trying to maintain those twin mountain peaks, but at the same time, take the RPG to places it’s never been before.

But looking back, you made the FF movie¹² and then the online game was developed. I think they left a really significant legacy. I genuinely think that the know-how developed back then has left its mark on the culture and opened up new paths for us all.

But when I worked on it, I realised that games were games. They just aren’t films... (laughs)

A film will always end at a specific, defined time. But games will continue for as long as you wish to play them. You won’t finish them unless you put in the effort, and for some reason this enhances the depth of the experience and makes the game resonate more with the player.

Right. Absolutely.

I’m always looking for new ways to excite players, trying to find out what it is that really gets them to immerse themselves in a gameworld. RPGs are where players can really project themselves into the world of the game, whereas games like Mario are where the experience points are built up in your fingertips. We often treat them as being very different, but I think they’re essentially the same thing. In terms of adding unique flavour to those games, the two of you have specific things you are good at, whereas Miyamoto-san, for example, has others. This is what gives games their separate tone or style.

I do have a sense that in the field of RPGs, the programming side of things has been somewhat neglected.

I think there was a period when that was the case. The priority was to impress people with beautiful graphics, and the programming side of things may have been side-lined.

But I do think at the same time that it’s a great time for RPGs. At this stage, those of us making RPGs are more aware of the problems that will present themselves, which makes things easier, and it’s still challenging and stimulating to make those games.

I see. Now, to conclude the interview, I’d like to ask you both about how you envisage video games developing in the future.

Sure. Well, this time round I combined different ideas and tried out various approaches, and I came to this conclusion: developing a game is like filling a lake one drop at a time. But I think that if you imagine that water dripping from a cloth, wringing the cloth will get those drops to fall thick and fast. With entertainment, there is no set answer, no set, defined way games should be made. With developments like the Internet, the number of methods you can take advantage of for games has increased, and these games aren’t made by a single person. So if you imagine a group of people all grouping together to wring out that cloth, it can lead to interesting results when there is no drop left.

So, all the developers are sharing the same common feeling about the main pillar, but if each one of them adds their ideas to the mix little by little, it could grow into something really rich and appealing. I think it’s really important to build an environment conducive to working in this way. With the games you make, Sakaguchi-san, I think a central pillar is that element, which people in general are not conscious of in that regard.

Yes, I would say so. This time in particular, while it was hard, we really managed to enjoy the process and the overall atmosphere was extremely good.

And how about you, Takahashi-san?

For this title, we defined all the elements needed for an RPG, calculated the productivity required from each member of the staff and collected data indicating precisely how long the process took.

Really? Is that right?

Yes. My aim was to prepare myself properly for the next time I need to step up and take on the world. In the future, we can build on that basis, though of course you always need to come up with new ideas too. My plan was to see more clearly how we could make a product using the particular skills and talents at our disposal. Not that I have yet reached a final conclusion.

I see. But what do you mean by stepping up and taking on the world? Do you mean in the sense of games created in Japan being successful worldwide?

Well, games like Mario and Zelda have been embraced by the whole world. But with RPGs it’s not so easy.

Yes, from a certain point, it did become tougher.

Do you mean one of the reasons is that creators tended to overuse the same approach?

I think so. I’m not sure if this is the best way to put it, but America and Europe were once slightly behind Japan in game development, but now the drive for innovation has meant that developers there have sped up rapidly and overtaken us.

So the way games are played changed, leaving the old ways behind.

Right. I feel that Japanese RPGs have been left behind. That’s precisely why RPGs have no choice but to change.

So then the question becomes one of deciding which elements to change, and which to keep the same.

But having said that, I do firmly believe that Japan still leads the world in terms of the fine detail in the games, and in rendering emotional depth. I think if we stay true to this, Japanese RPGs will still be able to hold their own on the global stage.

This is an issue that worries us all. Also, we’ve spoken of the concept of empathy and resonance. Well, when watching foreign films, we feel that same empathy. There may be elements of other cultures that are unfamiliar to us, but if that emotional resonance is present, then I think these differences can be bridged. That’s why there are things I am relatively optimistic about.

There’s no doubt that there are things that resonate with people no matter where they come from. But I don’t think there are that many people out there who are able to build on this effectively and consistently.

I’ve got this feeling that the solution is not too far away. I think if we work toward that solution in the field of RPGs, then I think we will probably be...

...alright.

This is one of the problems that those of us in Japan who are developing games will have to overcome. Although games are a form of entertainment, there are too many occasions where we start making games with the premise that we will not change things.

The typical example of what isn’t changing is the organisational structure. Structures don’t tend to change unless something really goes seriously wrong.

When an organisation is running smoothly, it can often become stuck in its ways. In fact, the whole existing structure needs to be scrapped and the way that games are made itself needs to be remade and remodelled.

I don’t think it would be easy to scrap it, but I think that this organisational structure probably needs to change. Rather than just demolishing it all at once, it needs to be steadily overhauled, scrapping parts and remodelling them.

I like to compare it to repairing an aeroplane while it is in mid-air.

Ah, that’s a very good way of putting it. Trying to replace an aeroplane part while it is flying is an extremely delicate operation. But something that brave and that precise is probably what’s needed.

When I speak to you both, I really get the sense that there is still a lot that Japanese games can achieve. I look forward to seeing you taking on the world soon. Thank you very much for joining me today.

Thank you very much.